Milan and after ...

Re: Milan and after ...

Postby bumphystars » Thu May 31, 2018 5:29 pm

chuckiem wrote:
bumphystars wrote:The exodus to the Cricket Club continues!

Both Jason Brown and Booyang Jin moving to Toronto to train with Orser.

Super surprised about Brown, super interested in how Jin's raw talent will flourish with such keen direction.

It is entirely possible that he will have both 2019 world champions under his tutelage.


Orser's had a WC candidate under his tutelage for years: Yuzuru Hanyu, who did win in 2017. Even if Jin improved 100% in terms of presentation, he would not begin to challenge Hanyu in that department. And technically, Jin has been far more erratic than Hanyu and just as prone to injury.


Of course, chuckie, but I was referring to Medvedeva when I said both 2019 champions.

Both Jin's and Hanyu's health are big question marks. Hanyu has to nail it to beat Jin, in all respects. Not saying I predict Jin to be WC, but I do think his chances just went up with this move.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby chuckiem » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:35 am

Well, yeah, I know you meant Medvedeva as the other champion because you can't have two men champions. I still don't think Jin could ever challenge Hanyu artistically. Hanyu is intrisically an artist---he feels his music, interprets it and communicates that feeling back to the audience. That is a group of skills that very, very few skaters have and cannot be taught.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby bumphystars » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:44 pm

completely agree about Hanyu. He is one-of-a-kind in this regard.

The question mark is whether he can keep up technically given where each are at in their careers. Of course, as you point out, they have both struggled with injuries and that will be a key factor. But my feeling is that Jin has more left in him than Hanyu does.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Winnipeg » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:04 pm

I actually think Brown would beat them all if he had a quad.............
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby chuckiem » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:26 pm

Given the new version of CoP, Hanyu may not have to keep up technically. He has sufficient technical content and far superior GOE. His 3A alone spans far more ice surface than any other man. Also, he stays in the character of the music while he is jumping. Much of Jin's 'character' is displayed in between jump elements.

Hanyu still performs fairly well even when skating while injured. We saw how Jin performs under the same conditions at Worlds 2018: abysmally.

I have to admit I am probably Yuzuru Hanyu's biggest fan. While I of course like and cheer for Nathan Chen, IMO Yuzuru is just on another level entirely from Nathan. Nathan will never, ever have Yuzuru's 3A because Nathan's knee problems (Osgood-Schlatter syndrome) in his early teens prevented him from practicing 3A at a time when it would have been easier to commit to muscle memory. Once he started working on quads instead, the 3A became more elusive for him. And though Nathan is musical and ballet-trained, he is not the intrinsic artist Yuzuru is.

Comparing Nathan and Jin, I much prefer Nathan. Nathan is a better artist than Jin and a better technician as well.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby bumphystars » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:56 pm

I don't disagree with much of what you say there Chuckie, all good points.

One slight quibble: I think Jin is a better entertainer than Nathan. Nathan is amazing for a lot of reasons, but he doesn't connect with an audience quite like Jin does. Jin has a raw talent with that, which is why seeing how an excellent coach like Orser will reshape his talent is so exciting.

Jason needs a quad and a 3A to best them both, IMO, and I'm not sure that will happen if he hasn't gotten them already. But I hope it does because I love his skating.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Virginia » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:04 am

bumphystars wrote:
Jason needs a quad and a 3A to best them both


Gotta disagree there, bumphy. Two or three years ago that statement might have been true, but in 2018 Brown needs several quads, not one. Mastering a quad toe alone won't get him on the podium. He needs three at least -- toe, salchow, and maybe loop or flip. He's going against skaters like Hanyu and Chen, who have both multiple quads and artistry.

I love Jason Brown's skating, too -- what serious skating fan doesn't? But I'll be really, really surprised if he can master the technique for multiple quads at the age of 23. Maybe I'm wrong -- Mirai got a triple axel in her mid-20s (at least for about half a season).

If Orser can get him there, he is truly a miracle worker.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby bumphystars » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:06 pm

Virginia, I totally agree, should have been more clear in my phrasing.

I mean, Patrick Chan had quads and triple axels and the strongest skating skills in the world, and he couldn't beat the top guys. Mind, he was never very consistent after his comeback, but I think there is a strong comparison there.

If Jason doesn't get consistent quads and a consistent 3A, he will not be competing for the podium, no matter how gorgeous we all think his skating is.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Winnipeg » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:12 pm

I fear you are all correct re Brown. Still, one can hope.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby chuckiem » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:39 pm

Chan's problem was that his 3a was never consistent, and he had only one consistent quad, the 4t. He learned the 4s but it was often hit or miss for him. It was hard for Patrick to keep up with Hanyu, Uno, Jin and Chen when they could execute multiple quads with ease. Jason Brown is pretty much in the same position as Chan, only he doesn't even have a quad.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Winnipeg » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:18 pm

If this was true, I guess everyone would have a quad but..........couldn't Jason and coach look at videos, and apply physics to identify where he is not filling the equation for the rotation, height, etc?

Strength, rotation, weight, and then Jason work on that piece of the puzzle. Do it by equation? I know......seems :roll:
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Andy » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:10 am

Winnipeg wrote:If this was true, I guess everyone would have a quad but..........couldn't Jason and coach look at videos, and apply physics to identify where he is not filling the equation for the rotation, height, etc?

Strength, rotation, weight, and then Jason work on that piece of the puzzle. Do it by equation? I know......seems :roll:


There is indeed a whole amount of physics involved, but you also need technique, mental strength and fitness. Basically: you know you leave the ice at a certain angle, lift yourself at a given height and with a certain speed and all the rest, BUT: if you are not fit enough, or you have a physical (or mental) barrier that prevents you from following the recipe, then even though you know your equation, it is still not going to happen.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby chuckiem » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:03 pm

Chan never mastered the 4s and Kolyada hasn't mastered the 4z, although both have easily learned 4t. Sometmes muscle memory works against you.....
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