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loveskating
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 680
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 Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Dragonlady wrote: | | loveskating wrote: | | Tara was not particularly consistent! Her programs were so high risk (3/3 loop and jump sequence with loop), she often had problems which was pretty much the only way Michelle Kwan with no 3/3 at all could beat her. |
In the 18 months leading up to the 1998 Olympics, Tara skated in 11 competitions, won 5 of them, US Championships, the Champions Series Final, Worlds and the Olympics, finished second in 5 of them and third in the other one. How much more consistent would you have liked her to be?
| loveskating wrote: | | Stojko was not all that consistent if you mean "CLEAN" because he often made small mistakes -- like Sasha did -- and he was absolutely not consisent after 1998. |
After his injury, Elvis was never the same skater but in the run up to 1998 he he medalled at every event he entered except the 1996 World Championships. In the 1993/94 and 1994/1995 seasons he won every event he entered except the Olympics where he finished second to Urmanov. He battled injuries in 1995/96 and missed the podium at Worlds, but medalled in every other event he entered. In 1996/97, a healthy Stojko won every event he entered. In 1997/98 he won all but two of the events he entered - the GPF and the Olympics, and he won the silver medal in those two events.
Elvis could have easily quit after his groin injury but he wanted to keep going. This is the same injury that ended Urmanov's career.
Again, how much more consistent would you like him to have been?
| loveskating wrote: | | By the way, running edges make noise -- even the way the blade is sharpened or the way the ice is can affect the sound of the running edge. VERY, very few skaters have silent edges, Katia Gordeeva being one of them -- and I stood rinkside watching her reherse at Symsbury. IMHO its a rare symmetry of blade and body that is totally God given, not merely to be mastered. |
Everybody's edges were quieter than Sasha's. Her stroking was the loudest and scratchiest I've ever heard in an elite skater. This was in stark contrast to Arakawa. When she stroked past me I could hear the wind in her hair and the creaking of her boots, nothing more. |
You've switched the terms from the actual skating and mistakes made, to the competitive record. The same could be said of Sasha Cohen the first year she was with Tarasova, she won everything except Cup of Russia and should have won that yet she did not skate "clean".
Again, as to Stojko, you've switched the terms from the issue of skating a clean program or two back to back clean programs, to that of medaling -- Kwan medaled numerous times having made mistakes, including once at US Nats with splats in the SP and LP, so the medals say NOTHING about how you actually skated as to clean or not, they only say that you won, which might imply that others just skated "less clean".
It is only your opinion about Sasha's edges; others have a vastly different opinion, I saw Sasha skate live numerous times, including rink side sitting five feet from Tarasova, and Sasha's edges were as clean as a whistle.
Come to think of it, the "scratchiest" edges I ever heard were Yagudin's at Rockerfeller Center, which was probably because the ice was hard as a rock in the freezing cold outdoors! |
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ClockwiseSpinner
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Is there any merit in having silent edges? that's new to me. usually the deeper the edges the louder the noise. And personally, i LOVE that noise. |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 3670
Location: Edge of reason
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ClockwiseSpinner wrote: | | Is there any merit in having silent edges? that's new to me. usually the deeper the edges the louder the noise. And personally, i LOVE that noise. |
Yes, I love that ripping noise. Scratchy edges don't sound like that. And they are indicative of a loss of power on the stroke. |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 3670
Location: Edge of reason
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| loveskating wrote: | | You've switched the terms from the actual skating and mistakes made, to the competitive record. The same could be said of Sasha Cohen the first year she was with Tarasova, she won everything except Cup of Russia and should have won that yet she did not skate "clean". |
That's absolutely incorrect. She didn't win the US Championships and finished off the podium at Worlds. It can also reasonably be said that it's unlikely she would have won the GPF if not for Irina's mother falling ill.
So she won Skate Canada in a weak field, LaLique, and the GPF. That's it.
Few skaters are ever perfect, but under 6.0, staying on your feet was imperative. Cohen won one medal in the GP under the 6.0 system. It wasn't until CoP came in and skaters could win on what they did instead of landing jumps and staying on your feet. That's why Elvis' record is so impressive. The guy had nothing going for himself but the ability to land quads and triple axels, stay on his feet and never back down. The judges were LOOKING for excuses to mark him down and he seldom gave them the opportunity.
No matter how you slice it, Sasha had a lot of technical issues not the least of which was her inability to stay on her feet. Under 6.0, her technical scores were generally in the 5.6 range because of those issues. Weak edges, wobbling jump entries and insecure landings cannot be overcome with pretty positions. Her edges improved markedly under Robin Wagner but they were never her greatest strength. They've also improved since she's been in SOI, but during her competitive career, she had the weakest basic skating of all of the top women. |
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ClockwiseSpinner
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Dragonlady wrote: | | ClockwiseSpinner wrote: | | Is there any merit in having silent edges? that's new to me. usually the deeper the edges the louder the noise. And personally, i LOVE that noise. |
Yes, I love that ripping noise. Scratchy edges don't sound like that. And they are indicative of a loss of power on the stroke. |
Interesting. Do you have any example on YouTube? I never noticed that there was such a difference. As a skater, one of the thing I learned early is that you have to skate with attack, speed, and not have fear to make noise when you turn, land, and do steps on the ice. I usually make a lot of noise especially on my crossovers  |
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lambielfan26
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 3492
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I cant believe anyone is questioning Stojko's consistency and mental fortitude. The guy made a career off of those things. Even those who hate his skating have admited he is one of the toughest competitors ever. He won an Olympic silver by doing a clean 8 triple free skate with 2 triple axel and 2 triple-triple combos on a ripped groin that was so painful he needed to walk in running shoes to the podium. He won a World title on a bum ankle that had most newspapers writing he had withdrawn from the event, by again cleanly doing 8 triples, 2 triple axels, and 2 triple-triples including one unexpectedly thrown in at the end to give him a triple edge on his main competitor. And talking about mistakes he made when he was approaching 30 on a never recovered groin is kind of stupid.
And is anyone actually comparing Stojko's consistency to Sasha's, I mean seriously.  |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 3670
Location: Edge of reason
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| lambielfan26 wrote: | | And is anyone actually comparing Stojko's consistency to Sasha's, I mean seriously. |
Not just her consistency, but her competitive record. The girl who found new ways to lose against the guy who was as reliable as a rock. |
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lambielfan26
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 3492
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| Dragonlady wrote: | | lambielfan26 wrote: | | And is anyone actually comparing Stojko's consistency to Sasha's, I mean seriously. |
Not just her consistency, but her competitive record. The girl who found new ways to lose against the guy who was as reliable as a rock. |
Yeah the guy who won an Olympic silver on one leg vs someone who ended up finding a way to win only bronze at a depleted Worlds with the top 4 or 5 skaters in the World all missing which everyone had her having in the bag. |
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loveskating
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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All I'm asking is that you define what you mean.
I'm simply making a rational distinction between winning a medal, which often occurs with a major mistake(s), and skating CLEAN, which is skating without major or obvious mistakes. To win a medal, all you have to do is skate better than the others at the given competition; you do not have to skate great, you do not have to skate clean, be inspired, etc. and you do not have to be consistent.
What does Stojko skating with a groin injury have to do with this discussion, with the criteria for "consistency"? I note, however, that he was not the first to skate with a groin injury, or worse injuries, although he did get an awful lot of attention (hype) for it. Skaters are always skating through pain, sometimes great pain, including at the lowest levels of competition.
If skating clean, without obvious mistakes like doubling jumps etc., much less skating "two back to back clean programs" are your criteria, then factually, Tara and Stojko were not very consistent is all. Its right there on YouTube for all to see! They both made a lot of mistakes; for example, Tara fell on her flip jump at US Nationals in 1998, but won 2nd place anyway, a medal with a splat! That is NOT consistency in my book; that is just making less mistakes than the others.
Those who actually were consistent recently as to skating many clean back to back programs with mistakes not obvious were Slutskaya (she was a mess before her come back by the way), Kwan, Yagudin, Plushenko. Perhaps I've missed someone -- maybe Rachel Flatt?
When I say mistakes that were not obvious, I refer, for instance, to Kwan's underrotation of her flip jump in the SP at 2002 Olympics, where she was nevertheless placed first viz a perfect and expressive Slutskaya.
In any event, the term "consistency" is not used very accurately or rationally as applied to numerous skaters who are bashed for inconsistency. |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 3670
Location: Edge of reason
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| loveskating wrote: | | When I say mistakes that were not obvious, I refer, for instance, to Kwan's underrotation of her flip jump in the SP at 2002 Olympics, where she was nevertheless placed first viz a perfect and expressive Slutskaya. |
Slutskaya was not perfect at the 2002 Olympics. There was a huge lage between her footwork and her 3F, such that she should have received a deduction of at least -2. I counted nearly a 3 second lag between the footwork and the jump. She also had some travelling on both her layback and and her closing combo spin. Kwan's unrotation was less than 1/8 of a turn and she did footwork right into the jump.
Last but not least, Kwan Rachmaninoff program is a masterpiece of choroegraphy. The program epitomizes combining movement and mood which is sensitive to the music. Irina did a lot of stroking about between the elements.
Both skated very, very well. Irina had more difficult spins, but Kwans were more perfectly completed. Spirals are about even. Jumps to Irina, choreography and transitions to Kwan. |
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lambielfan26
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 3492
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| If Irina had done her short program from the 2002 GPF or 2002 Worlds she would have won the SP in SLC easily. Her SP in SLC was not as good as those. |
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loveskating
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Dragonlady wrote: | | loveskating wrote: | | When I say mistakes that were not obvious, I refer, for instance, to Kwan's underrotation of her flip jump in the SP at 2002 Olympics, where she was nevertheless placed first viz a perfect and expressive Slutskaya. |
Slutskaya was not perfect at the 2002 Olympics. There was a huge lage between her footwork and her 3F, such that she should have received a deduction of at least -2. I counted nearly a 3 second lag between the footwork and the jump. She also had some travelling on both her layback and and her closing combo spin. Kwan's unrotation was less than 1/8 of a turn and she did footwork right into the jump.
Last but not least, Kwan Rachmaninoff program is a masterpiece of choroegraphy. The program epitomizes combining movement and mood which is sensitive to the music. Irina did a lot of stroking about between the elements.
Both skated very, very well. Irina had more difficult spins, but Kwans were more perfectly completed. Spirals are about even. Jumps to Irina, choreography and transitions to Kwan. |
I disagree with you on the details of those skates at 2002 SLC (and so did Jane Torvil of Torvil and Dean who publicly stated that Irina should have won that SP), but the specifics are not important; my point is that skaters often make mistakes that are not obvious and their skate might be called "clean" when it just wasn't -- I'm thinking at the moment of Jenny Kirk who made so many mistakes it was amzing, yet people claimed she was "clean" when she wasn't at all. |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 3670
Location: Edge of reason
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| loveskating wrote: | | I disagree with you on the details of those skates at 2002 SLC |
How can you disagree on the details of the skates when they are there on YouTube for anyone to see and confirm? You say the specifics don't matter. Sorry but the specifics are critical to the judges' decisions.
Three of the judges had Irina in 3rd place behind Sasha. All of the judges had Kwan 1st or second.
I guess looking at facts and dealing with specifics is just pointless because they show the fallacy of your assertions. Besides, a TV commentator agrees with you. So I guess that you also agree that David & Jamie won the OGM in Pairs because Scotty Hamilton said so. He's any Olympic Champion just like Jayne Torville so he must be right. |
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Eladola
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Dragonlady wrote: | | loveskating wrote: | | I disagree with you on the details of those skates at 2002 SLC |
How can you disagree on the details of the skates when they are there on YouTube for anyone to see and confirm? You say the specifics don't matter. Sorry but the specifics are critical to the judges' decisions.
Three of the judges had Irina in 3rd place behind Sasha. All of the judges had Kwan 1st or second.
I guess looking at facts and dealing with specifics is just pointless because they show the fallacy of your assertions. Besides, a TV commentator agrees with you. So I guess that you also agree that David & Jamie won the OGM in Pairs because Scotty Hamilton said so. He's any Olympic Champion just like Jayne Torville so he must be right. |
a big WHATEVER at your 2 latest posts DL .
And i'm the first person to argue on this matter but we can't realy open this subject again here can we ?
Loveskating wasnt being all that critical on the subjefct either way that it should require a response ... |
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Winnipeg
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1255
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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So I guess that you also agree that David & Jamie won the OGM in Pairs because Scotty Hamilton said so. He's any Olympic Champion just like Jayne Torville so he must be right.[/quote]
No, I just think that David and Jamie won the Gold because they outskated their competitors. They deserved to win IMO. |
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Winnipeg
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1255
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Dragonlady wrote: | | lambielfan26 wrote: | | And is anyone actually comparing Stojko's consistency to Sasha's, I mean seriously. |
Not just her consistency, but her competitive record. The girl who found new ways to lose against the guy who was as reliable as a rock. |
I don't know how anyone could doubt Elvis' consistency. He was solid as a rock despite whether you liked his style or not.
I thought Tara was pretty darn consistent too..............but then, who knows if she had stayed around, she was only at 3 Worlds and one Olympic. |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 3670
Location: Edge of reason
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Loveskating seems to define "consistency" as perfection and a skater is only consistent if they are perfect.
The reason I used the Sale & Pelletier example of a commentator saying they won is that I know that the poster believes that Anton & Elena won the gold medal and it was wrong to give Jamie & David the second gold. So if commentators are to be believed over the judges' scores, then it follows that he/she must also believe Scotty Hamilton's comments about Jamie & David in SLC.
Or for that matter, anything that Dick Button has ever said about Irina or Plushenko. |
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Winnipeg
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1255
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Consistency is relative to the 'industry standard.' Compared to the average consistency rate of skaters, Elvis and Tara were at the top.
If they had to be perfect all the time to be described as consistent, there'd be no consistent skaters! |
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loveskating
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Winnipeg wrote: | Consistency is relative to the 'industry standard.' Compared to the average consistency rate of skaters, Elvis and Tara were at the top.
If they had to be perfect all the time to be described as consistent, there'd be no consistent skaters! |
I never said perfect, I said "clean" and defined that as without major, obvious mistakes as in "two clean back to back programs".
Hmm. |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 3670
Location: Edge of reason
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| loveskating wrote: | I never said perfect, I said "clean" and defined that as without major, obvious mistakes as in "two clean back to back programs".
Hmm. |
Then you have to define "major, obvious mistakes" because Elvis was the cleanest skater I've ever seen, before 1998. Cleaner than Plushenko even. He may have had no stretch or line, but the guy delivered like no one else.
Tara was the same. It was always a shock when she missed anything. Kwan nearly as good until injuries started taking their toll in 2002.
Irina had brilliant skates, but nerves would get to her at Worlds and the Olympics. She should have won in 2001 but couldn't keep it together, especially after Kwan skated lights out. I atill get chills watching that skate. Irina heard the roar of the crowd at the end of the skate and was on the ice when Kwan gor her marks. It unnerved her knowing she couldn't put a foot wrong and she tried to do too much. As a result she turned in her worst performance of the year to finish second.
In the SP, the skate can look "clean" but still have major judging deductions - like too long a lag from the footwork to the jump, but the travels on the spins, especially the first one where the centre moves close to a foot across the ice, are fairly obvious. |
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