Olympics Wide Open

Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:13 pm

tennisfan wrote:There are privacy issues involved, and IOC isn't able to release publicly the reasons why athletes were not invited. I hope that the IOC will inform the individual athletes, but even if they do the likelihood is that the public may never know the reason(s).


What “privacy issues” do you have in mind? This is not an invitation for a birthday party to your neighbor. It's the invitation to the Olympic Games. The athletes in this case represent not only themselves, but also the team, the whole country. And in Russia, athletes who are members of the national team, receive sponsorship from the federation. Therefore, the federation must also know the reasons.
Meanwhile, in the news it was announced that athletes who were not invited to the Games filed lawsuits with the Sports Arbitration Court in Switzerland.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:41 pm

Sorry, I was little incorrect.
The figure skaters Ksenia and Ivan decided to challenge the non-admission to the Games in Pyeongchang in the civil court of Switzerland.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:43 am

Meanwhile, the Sports Arbitration Court in Lausanne (CAS) completely removed the sanctions from Russian 28 athletes who were accused of using doping in Sochi. With regard to 11 people, the penalties were mitigated, CAS reports. Hearings on three cases are postponed.
CAS also restored the results from the Sochi Olympics of justifiable athletes.

I did not doubt this result!

I am also sure that figure skaters (Ksenia Stolbova and Ivan Bukin), who were banned from Korea, would also win their cases. It is absurd to suspect figure skaters of any doping cheating. It is unclear now how soon the court will be able to review these two cases. I hope it is done fast enough for them to compete at Korea, at least at individual events.

I am only worried that the IOC will "not invite" the athletes even after they've been completed justified by CAS. The IOC is under pressure from those who really do not want Russia to perform well in Korea...
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:47 am

Fiveohnine wrote:I can’t believe someone posted that scratches mean anything! Ioc rules scratches didn’t mean anything when they banned treyikaov for having no scratches! He was on a list written by rodchenkov so even though his bottles had no scratches and no salt and they didn’t find any failed tests or text messages with his bottle number he was banned only because he was on a list written by rodchenkov


Fiveohnine, Aleksandr Tretyakov won the case in CAS. He IS the 2014 Olympic champion.
His honest name and reputation are restored!
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:54 am

Virginia wrote:That's exactly the kind of information that the authorities would like to see hushed up, especially since the Russian authorities refuse to admit that state-sponsored doping took place, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.


Virginia, your overwhelming evidence (diaries of one crazy person and the scratches on the surface of test tubes, which is unclear who and when put) proved to be insufficient for the CAS, for some reason...
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Virginia » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:34 pm

Ellen, the McLaren investigation found over 1600 documents and other physical evidence of institutionalized swapping of urine samples at Sochi. The evidence went far beyond the testimony of Radchenko or any other single person.

Moreover, I have heard rumours about the use of performance-enhancing substances from Russian and Soviet athletes going back decades -- too many to discount. (Irina Rodnina, the great pairs champion, was one. She reported that male skaters and male pairs skaters were routinely doped back when she was competing in the 1970s.) There is plenty of smoke here, enough to conclude that there was a raging fire burning behind the scenes.

I know you'll refuse to accept any of this, because you choose to believe what you're hearing and reading from the Russian media. I would like to point out that the Russian media is state-controlled, and therefore hardly objective when it comes to accusations of malfeasance against the state-run Russian sports authority. It's hardly reasonable of you to rail against the rest of us for believing what we read in the Western media when you accept your own country's media coverage at face value.

The Western media, for all its faults (and it has plenty), is not a single entity. It is many news organizations in many different countries run by companies with widely divergent agendas, and most of these are not under government control. The Sochi doping story was first broken in a German publication, and it has since been covered extensively and independently by media in the UK, Canada, the US and many other nations. This is not an anti-Russian conspiracy, it's an attempt to uncover and correct an egregious wrong that compromises the integrity of sports.

We are faced with two facts:

1) no-one in the Russian government, the Russian sports authority or the Russian Olympic committee has admitted that the doping and swapping of dirty urine samples for clean took place. Until there is an admission of guilt, suspicions will always remain.

2) there is no evidence that Russia is mending its ways. All Russian athletic achievements, past and future, are now tainted by questions. Was Adelina Sotnikova's gold medal a result of doping? What about Volosozhar and Trankov? What about the team gold? What about Medvedeva's last two years? And on and on and on. Are they all cheats?

I think the Paralympic Committee made the right decision: a blanket ban. I salute them for their courage, and I wish the IOC had shown the same resolve. A blanket ban of all Russian athletes -- perhaps for one or even two full Olympic cycles -- might have been enough to convince the Russian sports authorities to change their ways. And then, of course, the governing bodies of international sports could follow suit, and we might finally get clean athletes and clean sport.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Winnipeg » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:30 pm

What is the point of having doping rules if they are not strictly enforced. I thought the IOC was the entity that enforces these rules. Obviously, I was wrong? Without consequences to cheaters, there will always be doping.


Virginia raises some excellent points.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:48 pm

Virginia wrote:Moreover, I have heard rumours about the use of performance-enhancing substances from Russian and Soviet athletes going back decades -- too many to discount.

We all know that in many countries there were cases of using doping in the past and at present. Russia and the Unites States are among them. Question to WADA - shouldn't it improve their work?

Virginia wrote: I would like to point out that the Russian media is state-controlled, and therefore hardly objective when it comes to accusations of malfeasance against the state-run Russian sports authority.

Not certainly in that way. Now in Russia, not all media is controlled by the State. There are opposition media companies that are even funded from abroad. But in the case of doping, they were all more or less united. Today everyone happily presented the news about the justified athletes in such a way that justice triumphed.

Virginia wrote:We are faced with two facts:

1) no-one in the Russian government, the Russian sports authority or the Russian Olympic committee has admitted that the doping and swapping of dirty urine samples for clean took place. Until there is an admission of guilt, suspicions will always remain.

Look at it from the other side. The Russian Olympic Committee and the Ministry of Sport could had no information about any alleged substitution of dirty samples for clean ones in Sochi. Even if that took place.

Virginia wrote:Was Adelina Sotnikova's gold medal a result of doping? What about Volosozhar and Trankov? What about the team gold? What about Medvedeva's last two years? And on and on and on. Are they all cheats?

Do you think they cheated? I think you are the only one who thinks so.

Virginia wrote:I think the Paralympic Committee made the right decision: a blanket ban. I salute them for their courage, and I wish the IOC had shown the same resolve. A blanket ban of all Russian athletes -- perhaps for one or even two full Olympic cycles -- might have been enough to convince the Russian sports authorities to change their ways. ...


Actually Russian paralympic athletes will participate in the coming Olympics in Korea.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Trilogy86 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:06 pm

Ellen wrote:
Virginia wrote:Moreover, I have heard rumours about the use of performance-enhancing substances from Russian and Soviet athletes going back decades -- too many to discount.

We all know that in many countries there were cases of using doping in the past and at present. Russia and the Unites States are among them. Question to WADA - shouldn't it improve their work?

Virginia wrote: I would like to point out that the Russian media is state-controlled, and therefore hardly objective when it comes to accusations of malfeasance against the state-run Russian sports authority.

Not certainly in that way. Now in Russia, not all media is controlled by the State. There are opposition media companies that are even funded from abroad. But in the case of doping, they were all more or less united. Today everyone happily presented the news about the justified athletes in such a way that justice triumphed.

Virginia wrote:We are faced with two facts:

1) no-one in the Russian government, the Russian sports authority or the Russian Olympic committee has admitted that the doping and swapping of dirty urine samples for clean took place. Until there is an admission of guilt, suspicions will always remain.

Look at it from the other side. The Russian Olympic Committee and the Ministry of Sport could had no information about any alleged substitution of dirty samples for clean ones in Sochi. Even if that took place.

Virginia wrote:Was Adelina Sotnikova's gold medal a result of doping? What about Volosozhar and Trankov? What about the team gold? What about Medvedeva's last two years? And on and on and on. Are they all cheats?

Do you think they cheated? I think you are the only one who thinks so.

Virginia wrote:I think the Paralympic Committee made the right decision: a blanket ban. I salute them for their courage, and I wish the IOC had shown the same resolve. A blanket ban of all Russian athletes -- perhaps for one or even two full Olympic cycles -- might have been enough to convince the Russian sports authorities to change their ways. ...


Actually Russian paralympic athletes will participate in the coming Olympics in Korea.


That is incorrect. The ban on Russia competing at the 2018 Winter Paralympics has been upheld by the International Paralympic Committee.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:04 pm

Trilogy86 wrote:
Virginia wrote:I think the Paralympic Committee made the right decision: a blanket ban. I salute them for their courage, and I wish the IOC had shown the same resolve. A blanket ban of all Russian athletes -- perhaps for one or even two full Olympic cycles -- might have been enough to convince the Russian sports authorities to change their ways. ...


Actually Russian paralympic athletes will participate in the coming Olympics in Korea.


That is incorrect. The ban on Russia competing at the 2018 Winter Paralympics has been upheld by the International Paralympic Committee.

Russian athletes will compete as neutral athletes.
https://www.paralympic.org/news/pocog-s ... letes-team
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Fiveohnine » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:27 pm

Virginia wrote:Ellen, the McLaren investigation found over 1600 documents and other physical evidence of institutionalized swapping of urine samples at Sochi. The evidence went far beyond the testimony of Radchenko or any other single person.

Moreover, I have heard rumours about the use of performance-enhancing substances from Russian and Soviet athletes going back decades -- too many to discount. (Irina Rodnina, the great pairs champion, was one. She reported that male skaters and male pairs skaters were routinely doped back when she was competing in the 1970s.) There is plenty of smoke here, enough to conclude that there was a raging fire burning behind the scenes.

I know you'll refuse to accept any of this, because you choose to believe what you're hearing and reading from the Russian media. I would like to point out that the Russian media is state-controlled, and therefore hardly objective when it comes to accusations of malfeasance against the state-run Russian sports authority. It's hardly reasonable of you to rail against the rest of us for believing what we read in the Western media when you accept your own country's media coverage at face value.

The Western media, for all its faults (and it has plenty), is not a single entity. It is many news organizations in many different countries run by companies with widely divergent agendas, and most of these are not under government control. The Sochi doping story was first broken in a German publication, and it has since been covered extensively and independently by media in the UK, Canada, the US and many other nations. This is not an anti-Russian conspiracy, it's an attempt to uncover and correct an egregious wrong that compromises the integrity of sports.

We are faced with two facts:

1) no-one in the Russian government, the Russian sports authority or the Russian Olympic committee has admitted that the doping and swapping of dirty urine samples for clean took place. Until there is an admission of guilt, suspicions will always remain.

2) there is no evidence that Russia is mending its ways. All Russian athletic achievements, past and future, are now tainted by questions. Was Adelina Sotnikova's gold medal a result of doping? What about Volosozhar and Trankov? What about the team gold? What about Medvedeva's last two years? And on and on and on. Are they all cheats?

I think the Paralympic Committee made the right decision: a blanket ban. I salute them for their courage, and I wish the IOC had shown the same resolve. A blanket ban of all Russian athletes -- perhaps for one or even two full Olympic cycles -- might have been enough to convince the Russian sports authorities to change their ways. And then, of course, the governing bodies of international sports could follow suit, and we might finally get clean athletes and clean sport.


The reason why ioc won’t threaten Russia with total permanent expulsion unless it admits everything hasn’t been explained! Why not just move on from the era of Russia in Olympics. No one in the world complained that Russia wasn’t in the Olympics from 1920 to 1948. It wasn’t a big deal. No one cared and if Russia is Such a problem why not do a total formal expulsion of all Russians and all Russians neutrals? If a Russian wants to be at the Olympics they can move to a country that’s eligible.

Almost all evidence is rodchenkov based. That’s why CAS rejected so many bans.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby tennisfan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:33 am

Fiveohnine wrote:The reason why ioc won’t threaten Russia with total permanent expulsion unless it admits everything hasn’t been explained! Why not just move on from the era of Russia in Olympics. No one in the world complained that Russia wasn’t in the Olympics from 1920 to 1948. It wasn’t a big deal. No one cared and if Russia is Such a problem why not do a total formal expulsion of all Russians and all Russians neutrals? If a Russian wants to be at the Olympics they can move to a country that’s eligible.

Almost all evidence is rodchenkov based. That’s why CAS rejected so many bans.

The IOC didn't want Russia out of the Olympics and there was no politically motivated effort to do so. Anyone familiar with the internal politics of the IOC and its members can tell you that the IOC has been very pro-Russia - that's why the games were in Sochi to begin with. The IOC wanted Russia in the Olympics and gave them every opportunity to comply with WADA's requirements, but the Russian sporting authorities have continuously blocked WADA and the IOC was left with no choice but to ban the Russian Olympic Committee.

If you read the CAS decision you'll see it had nothing to do with Rodchenko, it was that in 28 of the cases the CAS did not believe that the evidence presented amounted to proof of a doping violation. It was, however, sufficient in 11 cases. In addition, the CAS lifted the life time bans for the 11 athletes, which is not a surprise because CAS has consistently ruled that life time bans are not allowed across many athletes and countries.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Fiveohnine » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:44 am

tennisfan wrote:
Fiveohnine wrote:The reason why ioc won’t threaten Russia with total permanent expulsion unless it admits everything hasn’t been explained! Why not just move on from the era of Russia in Olympics. No one in the world complained that Russia wasn’t in the Olympics from 1920 to 1948. It wasn’t a big deal. No one cared and if Russia is Such a problem why not do a total formal expulsion of all Russians and all Russians neutrals? If a Russian wants to be at the Olympics they can move to a country that’s eligible.

Almost all evidence is rodchenkov based. That’s why CAS rejected so many bans.

The IOC didn't want Russia out of the Olympics and there was no politically motivated effort to do so. Anyone familiar with the internal politics of the IOC and its members can tell you that the IOC has been very pro-Russia - that's why the games were in Sochi to begin with. The IOC wanted Russia in the Olympics and gave them every opportunity to comply with WADA's requirements, but the Russian sporting authorities have continuously blocked WADA and the IOC was left with no choice but to ban the Russian Olympic Committee.

If you read the CAS decision you'll see it had nothing to do with Rodchenko, it was that in 28 of the cases the CAS did not believe that the evidence presented amounted to proof of a doping violation. It was, however, sufficient in 11 cases. In addition, the CAS lifted the life time bans for the 11 athletes, which is not a surprise because CAS has consistently ruled that life time bans are not allowed across many athletes and countries.


Yes but it’s not 2014 anymore or 2007 when Sochi was chosen. Russia is now nothing but an extreme headache for ioc and why doesn’t ioc want Russia out Permanently. Sochi was corrupted, Sochi is embarrassing for ioc. Russia is a headache. You are right. Russia has blocked so many wada and ioc demands so why not expel Russia permanently? Ioc says rodchenkov is a great credible witness and believes everything he says but almost all of rodchenkovs work was ruled irrelevant to many Russian individuals whose bans CAS overturned. So now rodchenkov has been damaged and ioc maybe wants CAs reformed or now abolished!
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby tennisfan » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:36 pm

Fiveohnine wrote:Yes but it’s not 2014 anymore or 2007 when Sochi was chosen. Russia is now nothing but an extreme headache for ioc and why doesn’t ioc want Russia out Permanently. Sochi was corrupted, Sochi is embarrassing for ioc. Russia is a headache. You are right. Russia has blocked so many wada and ioc demands so why not expel Russia permanently? Ioc says rodchenkov is a great credible witness and believes everything he says but almost all of rodchenkovs work was ruled irrelevant to many Russian individuals whose bans CAS overturned. So now rodchenkov has been damaged and ioc maybe wants CAs reformed or now abolished!

Why IOC didn't ban Russia outright is a question I can't answer, though I thought the suspension of the Russian Olympic Committee was the correct decision. The CAS ruling doesn't affect the evidence present by Rodchenko, which has been verified with the physical evidence and documents that have been collected. The CAS just ruled that the evidence in some of these specific cases was not sufficient to support the finding that a doping offence had been committed. They didn't rule that these individuals didn't commit a doping offense, just that evidence presented didn't support such a finding. WADA has said that the IOC moved to quickly on these cases and should have waited for the forensic testing on the sample bottles to be completed.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Fiveohnine » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:37 pm

tennisfan wrote:
Fiveohnine wrote:Yes but it’s not 2014 anymore or 2007 when Sochi was chosen. Russia is now nothing but an extreme headache for ioc and why doesn’t ioc want Russia out Permanently. Sochi was corrupted, Sochi is embarrassing for ioc. Russia is a headache. You are right. Russia has blocked so many wada and ioc demands so why not expel Russia permanently? Ioc says rodchenkov is a great credible witness and believes everything he says but almost all of rodchenkovs work was ruled irrelevant to many Russian individuals whose bans CAS overturned. So now rodchenkov has been damaged and ioc maybe wants CAs reformed or now abolished!

Why IOC didn't ban Russia outright is a question I can't answer, though I thought the suspension of the Russian Olympic Committee was the correct decision. The CAS ruling doesn't affect the evidence present by Rodchenko, which has been verified with the physical evidence and documents that have been collected. The CAS just ruled that the evidence in some of these specific cases was not sufficient to support the finding that a doping offence had been committed. They didn't rule that these individuals didn't commit a doping offense, just that evidence presented didn't support such a finding. WADA has said that the IOC moved to quickly on these cases and should have waited for the forensic testing on the sample bottles to be completed.

You would think “verification” of rodchenkov evidence would have been upheld by CAS who rodchenkov testified in front of but rodchenkov was dismissed because the verification doesn’t really exist. Rodchenkov says Russia opened the bottles so a way is found to opn the bottles! But what about the method of identifying the bottles? Athletes sending their doping control numbers that are also on the bottles? Rodchenkov doesn’t provide any evidence for that. Scratches are said to be evidence except when it isn’t. So that’s tossed! Rodchenkov bombed very badly at CAS.

You and others say ioc is not banning Russia because it paid for an Olympics but now it’s nothing but a black mark!
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby siteadmin » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:38 pm

You folks have done well keeping the discussion relevant to the topic and have been fairly civil.....just don't fall into the pattern of repeating the same thing over and over.

Please and thank you.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby tennisfan » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:21 pm

Fiveohnine wrote:You would think “verification” of rodchenkov evidence would have been upheld by CAS who rodchenkov testified in front of but rodchenkov was dismissed because the verification doesn’t really exist. Rodchenkov says Russia opened the bottles so a way is found to opn the bottles! But what about the method of identifying the bottles? Athletes sending their doping control numbers that are also on the bottles? Rodchenkov doesn’t provide any evidence for that. Scratches are said to be evidence except when it isn’t. So that’s tossed! Rodchenkov bombed very badly at CAS.

You and others say ioc is not banning Russia because it paid for an Olympics but now it’s nothing but a black mark!

I don't have an answer for you. I'm waiting for more information to come to light relating to the forensic tests and the documents recovered last fall. I think that's all we can do.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby JimSlate71 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:46 pm

Alexander Krushelnitsky (Olympic Athlete from Russia), who just won a bronze medal in curling at these 2018 Olympics has tested positive for Meldonium…..
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Virginia » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:08 am

not surprised ...
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:33 pm

Not surprised, really?
Alexander Krushelnitsky, the 2016 World champion in curling. The test showed that the drug was taken once. He must have suddenly gone crazy and drank meldonium at the Olympics.
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