Milan and after ...

Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Jonas » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:53 pm

Frankly, the US does not need three spots for the 2019 Worlds because, let's face it, who among the US ladies will really be competitive?? Maybe Bradie Tennell and...ummm...???

This is a great opportunity for Mariah Bell. If she can somehow finish top 10 with a more solid pair of performances than our Olympic trio, then it would further solidify her position as one of the leading US ladies going into the next Olympiad. (I'm presuming here that Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold, and Mirai Nagasu are done competing.)

Speaking of Mirai, I'll go out on a limb and say that she'll land at least one clean 3Axel next week!

RE: Kayne & O'Shea -- please don't tell me there's an injury yet again?!?! It just seems that injury always kills any momentum they rebuild for themselves.

Your thoughts...
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby chuckiem » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:37 pm

Tarah Kayne always seems to have an injury that prevents her from landing jumps and throws. No use sending her to Worlds under those conditions.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby sms29s66 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:18 pm

Watching the ladies short. If I hear Ryan Bradley say "the conversation" one more time, I may throw something at the TV. I swear, they must pay him by the word!
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Jonas » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:56 pm

So, only RUS will have three pairs at the 2019 Worlds. I haven't watched this year's Jr. Worlds yet, but I wonder if one of the top junior pairs will splash next season. I've been following Boikova & Kozlovski (coached by Tamara Moskvina, IIRC) for the last two seasons now. Really, there are some promising Russian junior teams coming up.

ITA just missed having 3 pairs. I do hope Marchei & Hotarek continue.

CAN and CHN are down to 2 pairs

The US is down to 1 pair. If they're even going to continue after this, I'm not sure how much longer the presumption that the Knierims are our top pair will hold. Kayne & O'Shea have had some solid results over the last 6 seasons, but have also struggled w/as many sidelining injuries that stop their momentum from carrying through so. Again, I gotta catch Jr. Worlds, where the US junior pairs reportedly fared pretty well.

From the little snippet from their IceNetwork interview, it sounds to me like James & Cipres are continuing.

Your thoughts...
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Virginia » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:06 pm

I'm thrilled for Aliona and Bruno winning their first world title. (I'm wondering if they'll go out on this high note, Olympic and world champions, or keep on?)

Also thrilled for Vanessa and Morgan, who have really stolen my heart. I'd love to see them at the top of the podium next year. I really think they can do it.

As for the silver-medal team ... I can only say HALLELUJAH to never having to watch that Candy Man program again. It's just awful. I'd have ranked them below the French just for that horrible music and jerky choreography. Tarasova and Morozov seem to have a real problem finding their style -- their short program music is much too heavy and somber (sounds like a funeral march) and weighs them down, while the bubble-gum-pop free program doesn't complement their strengths (and yes, Ellen, I acknowledge that they do have strengths!)

Congrats to Canada for pulling off two spots in such convincing fashion. The Knierems, though ... disaster. I don't know when I've seen a pair blow a death spiral like that. Wonder what was up?
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Dragonlady » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:25 pm

Tarasova & Morosov are a cure for insomnia. They have everything they need to be a top pair but no spark and no personality. She is more an ice queen kind of beauty so the perky bouncy pop music was a poor choice, not to mention lyrics about making her “panties drop”, isn’t really appropriate. I thought the classical suited them to a T.

Bruno and Aljona are truly the highlight for the week so far. And James &Cipres.

I was travelling this morning and missed the SD.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Virginia » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:31 pm

Somebody just posted Pap and Ciz on YouTube. Knock me over with a feather -- she didn't get a new dress!

I was convinced that one was going in the shredder after Pyeongchang.


Edited to add: I see Dabin Choi has withdrawn. A shame -- I really like her skating. I think she's underappreciated by the judges.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Dragonlady » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:11 pm

That was a very expensive dress. I highly double she’d get a new one for just one competition. We always checked equipment before every competition expecially fastenings and closures. Why they didn’t do this before the Olympics is beyond me. They should also have done a better job of repairing it after the warmup.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby tennisfan » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:53 am

According to Marie-France they did the exact same thing with the dress as they had with every practice and there was never any indication of a problem until the short dance started.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby bumphystars » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:15 pm

Jonas wrote:
The US is down to 1 pair. If they're even going to continue after this, I'm not sure how much longer the presumption that the Knierims are our top pair will hold. Kayne & O'Shea have had some solid results over the last 6 seasons, but have also struggled w/as many sidelining injuries that stop their momentum from carrying through so. Again, I gotta catch Jr. Worlds, where the US junior pairs reportedly fared pretty well.

Your thoughts...


I think the international results we are seeing from the US pairs is directly because in the last decade there have been so few partnerships that have lasted more than a few seasons. Pairs need time to gel, and if they are breaking up with their partners every other season, that simply can't happen.

Is it also possible that the strong emphasis on women's skating in the US has diverted top-tier talent from going to pairs? Asking sincerely.

John ZImmerman has done some amazing things with James and Cipres. Now he needs to get charge of a promising young American duo and give them time to develop. With the right team, I think there is great potential to get back on top.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Jonas » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:23 pm

Both the Knierims and Kayne & O'Shea have been pairs for 6 seasons now, so I don't think we can blame the US tradition of splitting so quickly as the sole reason for this result. Tarah Kayne has just been so injury prone over this time frame. Any momentum they gain w/a solid result is hampered by long bouts of being unable to train due to recovery time for injury. The Knierims simply can't compete for top 6 because of their consistent inability to land the sbs jumps. He was never a strong jumper, but in fairness, Alexa botches many of her attempts as well. Alexa, in case you don't know, was a high level singles competitor in the junior ranks in the late 2000s and had up to 3flip in her arsenal. Sadly, I kinda totally saw this result coming.

But yes, all of us who've been posting on this board for years knows of the tongue-in-cheek thread titled "US Pairs Splits!!" Nevermind splitting early on, but what's even worse is splitting when you've made a huge stride. Caitlin Yankowskas and John Coughlin finished 6th at Worlds in 2011 -- and if you see which teams they finished behind, that was HUGE accomplishment for US pairs. Go figure, their split was announced barely a month after that.

I don't think that the USFSA intentionally diverts potential talent away from pairs. I think most naturally start out in singles and then delve into pairs later. If you look back at some of our strongest individual pairs skaters --Jenni Meno, Kyoko Ina, Rena Inoue -- they all started out in ladies' singles during the era of compulsories. If you look back at their performances, their sbs jumps and throws were generally solid, skated w/ease and nice posture during the crossovers. But equally important as the skills they brought over from singles was that they stuck w/their pairs partners and afforded themselves time to gel. In fact, they all competed for two Olympic cycles w/their partners (Ina w/Jason Dungjen)!

Denney & Frazier did train under the Fontana & Zimmerman team for one season before Denney's sidelining injury.

Your thoughts...
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby bumphystars » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:56 am

Great post, Jonas!

Point taken about the current top teams being together for a while, but that is the exception that proves the rule. Because they have stuck together, they have risen to the top. And we all know that depth is what really creates excellence—look at how amazing the US dancers are doing on the world stage, in part because they are pushing each other to get better. That's what needs to happen in pairs.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Andy » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:43 am

The new requirements for Ice Dancing have been posted:

https://www.isu.org/inside-single-pair- ... -2148/file
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Virginia » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:33 pm

so they're mucking around with it again ... the short dance becomes the rhythm dance.

Not sure that's going to catch on in general conversation.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Maleeva » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:55 pm

Interesting that they are proposing a one point bonus/no action/deduction for the overall “entertainment” of the program.

I’d love to know the rational behind that proposal and how the dance technical committee will try to define entertainment. And it looks like the referee is somehow involved.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Dragonlady » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:09 pm

Not that my opinion would matter, but if I were a judge, any team skating to Phantom of the Opera would get an automatic -1 because that music gets on my last nerve. No program skated to it has any entertainment value whatsoever.

Now while this is a very tongue in cheek comment, I’m sure judges have musical preferences too so such biases can’t help but influence their decisions regarding “entertainment” values.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby chuckiem » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:50 pm

The entertainment bonus looks suspicious to these eyes. It would probably be enacted by having the judges "vote" on this one particular 'question' --- much the way they do for deductions today, with the referee acting as an additional 'voter'. They would enter a specific value such as 2=bonus, 0=deduction 1=No Value
A majority of the judges' votes would determine whether a bonus or deduction would be given.

The problem is that judging panels aren't always balanced, and that can lead to regional bias---what North American and Western European judges find 'entertaining' may not be entertaining to Eastern European and/or Asian judges.

Look at the panel for the SD at Worlds 2018: 4 former SSRs (UKR, LTU, LAT, GEO), 2 Eastern Europeans (CZE, TUR), 2 Western Europeans (GER, ESP) and one Asian (JPN). That's a total of 8 European judges, 1 Asian judge and no North American judge.

If the Bonus plan was in effect for this year's Worlds and the above panel was in place for the FD, all those European judges might have voted a bonus for Cappellini/LaNotte, and a deduction for Hubbell/Donohue and Weaver / Poje. Because W/P was only 0.27 ahead of C/L, taking a point away from W/P's FD and adding a point to C/L's FD would have put the Italians on the podium and W/P in fourth place.

This 'bonus' plan could actually influence a close result, and that is unacceptable. If a group of judges wanted to act together in collusion, this is a simple way to do it with the least risk.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Andy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:33 pm

And the madness may be even getting bigger: according to the last published tech regulations, next year the GOE will range from +5 to -5. We have seen the judges completely ignoring the bullet points principle to handle the +3 to -3 span, one would just wonder what will happen with larger range. If judges are not willing to use/are not comfortable with a smaller range, I expect GOEs going all over the place or severely biased in one direction even more than it is now. I hope this decision will be overturned during the next council (I am not sure how the whole process works, but one can always hope)
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby bumphystars » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:02 pm

Maleeva wrote:Interesting that they are proposing a one point bonus/no action/deduction for the overall “entertainment” of the program.

I’d love to know the rational behind that proposal and how the dance technical committee will try to define entertainment. And it looks like the referee is somehow involved.


This is totally bananas. Could there be a more subjective metric than "entertainment"?

At this point, it's as if they are trying to making is EASIER to game the system.
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Re: Milan and after ...

Postby Jonas » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:30 pm

So, we're officially in the off-season after the end of an Olympiad...

James & Cipres have confirmed that they will definitely compete next season AND will gun for both the European and World titles! Asked about Beijing '22: Cipres replied something to the effect that it's not completely out of the question, but it's a long time, to which James very quickly replied, "it goes by quick!" :D

Your thoughts...
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