2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby Dragonlady » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:50 am

I think there needs to be a clear cut, open selection criteria which is revealed to the public BEFORE the event starts. The USFA should say we’ve decided that these people could go depending on how they skate here, but the rest of the field is out of contention.

For the silver medalist to get NO post-Nationals event is almost unprecedented.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby sms29s66 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:41 am

Dragonlady, I agree with you. Virginia, you have to admit that all the stars had to align for Adam and against the best skaters in the world for him to have the statistics you cite. Under no other circumstances would he ever have been considered. Now tell me: Does he have a snowball's chance in hell to medal in SK? That's the real question. The answer is NO (unless Nathan, Usuru, Javier, Shomo, and that new Russian kid on the block all lay down and die on the ice). And since the answer is NO, there was no point in denying the silver medalist a berth.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby tennisfan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:16 pm

Dragonlady wrote:For the silver medalist to get NO post-Nationals event is almost unprecedented.

Miner was given 4 Continents.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby Virginia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:08 pm

sms wrote:
Virginia, you have to admit that all the stars had to align for Adam and against the best skaters in the world for him to have the statistics you cite.


Not sure I'm following you here, sms. Which statistics do you mean?

I cited Adam's and Ross's respective records at the 4 most recent National championships, at the 4 most recent Worlds, and at this season's Grand Prix events. That's 11 different events!

When you say "all the stars had to align" that suggests a fluke. But Adam has had too many successes over the past couple of years for them to be regarded as flukes.

Let me put this another way:

Adam Rippon:
Nationals 2018: 4th.
NHK 2017: 2nd.
Skate America 2017: 2nd.
GPF 2017: 5th.
Worlds 2017: named to team, unable to compete due to injury.
Nationals 2017: injured, unable to compete.
TEB 2016: 3rd.
Skate America 2016: 3rd.
GPF 2016: 6th.
Worlds 2016: 6th.
Nationals 2016: 1st.

Ross Miner:
Nationals 2018: 2nd
Skate America 2017: 6th
GPF 2017: did not qualify
Worlds 2017: did not qualify
Nationals 2017: 5th
Skate Canada 2016: 12th
Cup of China 2016: 9th
GPF 2016: did not qualify
Worlds 2016: did not qualify
Nationals 2016: 5th.

So: over this two-plus-year time period, Ross Miner won one silver medal at Nationals, period. He failed to make the GP final or the world team.
Adam Rippon won a nationals gold, four GP medals (2 silver, 2 bronze), qualified for two GP finals and for two world championships.

That's not "the stars aligning" -- that's a painstaking track record being constructed by Adam over the course of 2 1/2 seasons (during which he suffered a broken foot).

I really do think the USFSA International Committee made the correct choice.

(But I agree that it might have been wise to give Worlds to Miner, to soften the blow of losing the Olympics.)
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby Virginia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:13 pm

By the way, I just realized my math is off.

If Adam was born 11 November 1989 then he turned 28 in November, not 29. He's only a year older than Miner.

Mea culpa. Never claimed to be a math genius!
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby bumphystars » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:33 pm

I won't hold it against you, Virginia!

Also an interesting perspective from Skating Protocol on Twitter and Instagram this morning: If Miner's 4S and 3A had been called underrotated, he would have been fourth. And, honestly speaking, they probably should have been.

The tech panel did some fishy stuff at nationals, especially for the men's event. (Again, follow Skating Protocol for more on this, it's an amazing account.)

Lastly, I for one have no problems with Adam being on the team. The USFSA were clear about their selection process ahead of time and, according to that criteria, Adam is the clear selection. I'm delighted to see him head to the Olympics.

And it's hard to believe, but he is the first openly gay figure skater to compete for the US at the Olympics. About time! What a role model for so many young people.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby Jonas » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:20 pm

Dragonlady wrote:I think there needs to be a clear cut, open selection criteria which is revealed to the public BEFORE the event starts.


USFSA had sent out the memo during its Champs' Camp last summer outlining which events would be considered by the selection committee in naming the Olympic Team. The events were tiered in order of importance. Everyone was aware of the tiered events.

What may not have clearly been spelled out was how the tiers were weighted relative to each other AND even how some of the events within the same tier are. More specifically, was the 2018 US Nationals given any additional priority??
1. Does Ross's silver at Tier 1 2018 US Nationals trump Adam's 6th place finish at the Grand Prix Final, and, if so at all, by how much?? Adam's got Ross beaten in Tiers 2 & 3.
2. Does Ross's silver at Tier 1 2018 US Nationals trump Vincent's 2nd place at the Tier 3 2017 US Nationals, which allowed him to win Tier 2 2017 World Juniors?? Vincent also has another Tier 3 win over Ross in that Vincent finished higher in their head to head at Finlandia Trophy.
3. Does Ross's silver at Tier 1 2018 US Nationals trump Jason's 3rd place at the Tier 3 2017 US Nationals, which allowed him to compete at Tier 2 2017 Four Continents and 2017 Worlds, wher he finished 7th?? Jason does have Ross beat in Tier 3 as Jason did medal at 2017 Skate Canada and at another Challenger.

Given the USFSA's selections, it appears to me that 2018 US Nationals was degraded in relative value when the committee was weighing all the criteria. The USFSA certainly has the right to proceed this way. All this criteria objectively considered, then there is how the Olympic Teams were objectively justified. Whether you believe the selections were truly and honestly 100% objective is another story...

I guess the my disagreement stems from my opinion that the 2018 US Nationals should be given highest priority and should be THE top tier all by itself. It is the most recent and the most high pressure selection competition right before the Olympics and is where all US contenders compete head to head. The USFSA is reportedly going to tweak this memo to possibly restructure the tiers and/or assign weights to certain events in the interest of greater transparency. I do hope the 2022 US Nationals regains its position on the top of the hierarchy.

Your thoughts...
Last edited by Jonas on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby Jonas » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:46 pm

bumphystars wrote:The tech panel did some fishy stuff at nationals, especially for the men's event. (Again, follow Skating Protocol for more on this, it's an amazing account.)


THIS!

While I tried to explain objectively in my previous post how the USFSA used the criteria to select its team, I also got the sense that the USFSA was going to try and back in the results for its preferred men's team, which I believe to be Chen, Rippon, and Brown. I hate to start Konspiracy Theories and Politkal manipulations, but there was indeed some visibly sketchy calls:

In the SP Jason Brown got full credit for that 3Axel, which was clearly two-footed and well beyond quarter turn short. Had he gotten that double carrot, he would've' and should've been 4th behind Grant Hochstein, who knocked his SP outta the park complete w/clean 4toe-3toe and 3Axel.

Ok fine...

Vincent gets a carrot on the 4flip, which looked all the way around to me, while Ross gets spared one on his 4Sal, which was clearly underrotated. While I was happy to see and agree with Ross finishing ahead of Vincent overall, had the right calls been made, then perhaps this whole shenanigan w/Ross not selected would be a nonexistent issue. The skeptic in me figures that the judges were using Ross as a pawn to put ahead of Vincent, so that Adam and Jason can safely remain in the top 3. Of course, they both erred seriously in their FS -- and here we are!!

Your thoughts...
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby sms29s66 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:48 pm

Virginia, my bottom line is that the committee jumped over the silver medalist who doesn't have a chance to win a medal for the fourth place finisher who doesn't have a chance to medal. That makes no sense, leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many fans, and is not likely to raise the popularity of the sport. I agree with Mark Mitchell--why did the committee allow them to spend all that money coming to Nationals if Ross had no chance to be named to the Olympic team no matter what.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby Virginia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:43 pm

I agree, sms, that neither Rippon nor Miner has a chance to win a medal. No argument there.

But isn't there more at stake than medals, especially at Worlds? Rippon has placed far higher at his last two worlds (6th in 2016 and 8th in 2015) than Miner, whose only two world championship appearances were 11 (2011) and 14th (2013). And the higher our skaters place, the better our chances of retaining three spots for 2019.

I am in complete agreement with those of you who say the tech panel on the men's event was up to some fishy fishy stuff. I love Jason Brown, but that triple axel smelled like an overripe mackerel. I can't begin to justify prioritizing a skater with no quad and no reliable triple axel over Miner, who threw down three triple axels and a terrific quad salchow (that one is on the International Committee, of course, not the technical panel). As my students would say, what's up with that?
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby sms29s66 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:48 pm

Virginia, I am not addressing World's. My opinion of Worlds is that Jason Brown is more likely to keep our three men's spots than Adam. Ross Miner isn't in my equation for Worlds. The Olympics is an entirely different matter.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby Virginia » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:41 pm

So I looked at the banner on the USFSA home page yesterday (where they have a montage of photos of all the current national champions) and realized that three of the four titles changed hands.

- Karen Chen out, Bradie Tennell in;
- Shibs out, Hubbell/Donohue in;
- Kayne/O'Shea out, Knierems in;
- only Nathan Chen retained his title.

Very unusual in an Olympic year, yes?
Last edited by Virginia on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby Jonas » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:29 pm

In the 3 prior Olympic years, the US title changed holders in 2 disciplines. In '98 and '02, the US title only changed holders in 1 discipline.

BTW, I just checked the USFSA's site and the 2017 Champs are still on the banner.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby tennisfan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:54 am

Virginia wrote: - Kayne/O'Shea out, Knierems in

2017 US Pairs Champions were Denney/Frazier- hard as it is to believe given how they skated this year - Kayne/O'Shea won in 2016 and withdrew last year after she was injured on a throw in the short program.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby Virginia » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:38 am

Oops! You're completely right!

I wrote that at work and didn't take the time to check my (obviously faulty) memory.
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Re: 2018 US NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

Postby tennisfan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:11 am

Virginia wrote:Oops! You're completely right!

I wrote that at work and didn't take the time to check my (obviously faulty) memory.

To be honest, we're all better for forgetting pretty much everything that happened in the US Championship Pairs in 2016. :D
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