Olympics Wide Open

Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:45 pm

Virginia wrote: that state-sponsored doping took place, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.


The "overwhelming evidence" is the words of one person - the former head of the RUSADA laboratory, G.Rodchenkov, who was actually cheating with the doping tests. Of course he presented that like he was forced by the Russian Sports authorities. Also now he is being well paid by his "friends" in the United States for the "information" on Russian doping.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby BrazilianFellow » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:21 am

I saw in Ksenia's Instagram a post that said she and Ivan Bukin would have been allowed to compete in Korea and a message saying thank you to her supporters and fans. But a few minutes later, the post was deleted.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby BrazilianFellow » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:18 am

BrazilianFellow wrote:I saw in Ksenia's Instagram a post that said she and Ivan Bukin would have been allowed to compete in Korea and a message saying thank you to her supporters and fans. But a few minutes later, the post was deleted.


Sorry, that was just a petition.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby tennisfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:10 pm

Ellen wrote:
Virginia wrote: that state-sponsored doping took place, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.


The "overwhelming evidence" is the words of one person - the former head of the RUSADA laboratory, G.Rodchenkov, who was actually cheating with the doping tests. Of course he presented that like he was forced by the Russian Sports authorities. Also now he is being well paid by his "friends" in the United States for the "information" on Russian doping.

No it's not. I'm sorry that you can't come to terms with what happened.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby JimSlate71 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:03 am

Ellen wrote:
Virginia wrote: that state-sponsored doping took place, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.


The "overwhelming evidence" is the words of one person - the former head of the RUSADA laboratory, G.Rodchenkov, who was actually cheating with the doping tests. Of course he presented that like he was forced by the Russian Sports authorities. Also now he is being well paid by his "friends" in the United States for the "information" on Russian doping.


Ellen, that's not true. An investigation was conducted, and the items and setups (for instance, the holes in the wall to transfer samples) were discovered.

That being said, I completely agree with you that no athlete should be excluded from the Olympics without an explanation/reason given. My assumption is that they were. If it truly wasn't done, this is definitely something that needs to be clarified by the IOC, which I assume they will be doing…..one can't just make a list of people excluded without reason….. For example, I was glad to see Bobrova spared from the exclusion list, despite her doping incident. I believe that her case was just an oversight and honest mistake, so I'm glad they are allowing her to compete.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:27 am

JimSlate71 wrote:
An investigation was conducted, and the items and setups (for instance, the holes in the wall to transfer samples) were discovered.


No, the hole in wall was not found. The fact of replacing the samples was not finally proven. Mclauren based all his conclusions on Rodchenkov's words only.

Here's publication on the IOC site with the criterias by which the Russian athletes were checked.

Quote:
"Scratches & Marks.
Based on the McLaren Investigation, samples have been identified that were allegedly opened by the Federal Security Service (FSB) during the Olympic Winter Games Sochi 2014 and have been investigated by the IOC."

The word ALLEGEDLY doesn't mean anything to you?

JimSlate71 wrote:That being said, I completely agree with you that no athlete should be excluded from the Olympics without an explanation/reason given. My assumption is that they were.


Had the explanations been given to Ivan Bukin or to the RFSF then Ivan had not written the open letter where he asked for the explanations.

Yesterday the heads of the Winter Sports Federations requested the information from the IOC of the reasons for excluding Russian athletes. So now the IOC will have to provide the explanations.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:25 am

For those here who still do not beleive the facts.

Six times Olympic champion in Short Track Viktor Ahn didn'r receive the invitation to Korea. He also wrote open letter to the IOC president Thomas Bach.
https://www.russkating.ru/News/item/otk ... omasu-bahu

The extract from Ahn's letter:
"Dear Mr. President Thomas Bach,
...
I thoroughly went over the criteria which commission utilized when they made this decision. I can honestly declare that I haven’t done anything that would justify putting me on the list of athletes barred from participating in the Olympic Games.

It is outrageous that there is no concrete reason which explains my exclusion from the Olympics, and furthermore people now view me as an athlete who used doping. After all these years in sports, this verdict of preventing me to be in Olympics has become a symbol of mistrust to me from the side of IOC as well as the reason of mistrust from the side of the entire sport community.

I hope that the IOC will ultimately declare their reason for my exclusion, so I will be able to defend my honor and dignity. I have a full right to believe and hope that I have the trust of my supporters, as well as journalists, after my long journey in short-track and with absolute absence of my fault in this situation, when I’m deprived an opportunity to participate in the Olympics.

Sincerely,
Victor Ahn"
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby JimSlate71 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:30 pm

Ellen wrote:
JimSlate71 wrote:
An investigation was conducted, and the items and setups (for instance, the holes in the wall to transfer samples) were discovered.


No, the hole in wall was not found. The fact of replacing the samples was not finally proven. Mclauren based all his conclusions on Rodchenkov's words only.


McLaren Report: https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/ ... t_ii_2.pdf

Not based only on Rodchenkov's words - also Vitaly Stepanov's, and a host of other people who would only comment anonymously, because they were afraid of repercussions. (i.e. didn't want to end up like Nemtsov)

The evidence really is overwhelming - male DNA found in female hockey player's urine, scratches under the caps only of suspected dopers, E-mail and electronic evidence of collusion with Russian agencies…..so much more to list, all in the report.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby tennisfan » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:37 pm

Ellen wrote:For those here who still do not beleive the facts.

Six times Olympic champion in Short Track Viktor Ahn didn'r receive the invitation to Korea. He also wrote open letter to the IOC president Thomas Bach.
https://www.russkating.ru/News/item/otk ... omasu-bahu

The extract from Ahn's letter:
"Dear Mr. President Thomas Bach,
...
I thoroughly went over the criteria which commission utilized when they made this decision. I can honestly declare that I haven’t done anything that would justify putting me on the list of athletes barred from participating in the Olympic Games.

It is outrageous that there is no concrete reason which explains my exclusion from the Olympics, and furthermore people now view me as an athlete who used doping. After all these years in sports, this verdict of preventing me to be in Olympics has become a symbol of mistrust to me from the side of IOC as well as the reason of mistrust from the side of the entire sport community.

I hope that the IOC will ultimately declare their reason for my exclusion, so I will be able to defend my honor and dignity. I have a full right to believe and hope that I have the trust of my supporters, as well as journalists, after my long journey in short-track and with absolute absence of my fault in this situation, when I’m deprived an opportunity to participate in the Olympics.

Sincerely,
Victor Ahn"


I believe Viktor Ahn, I don't have any reason not to. That doesn't that mean that the committee reviewing the Russian athletes didn't have reason to exclude him from the Olympics, it's just that we (and he) don't know what that reason is. I doubt that the reasons will be made public, but the athletes themselves should be informed. It's important to remember that the IOC is not releasing the list of athletes invited until tomorrow.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:02 pm

In response to Ahn's letter, the IOC made statement that they would not give comments on invividual cases. So the six-times Olympic champion, Korean Ahn will never know why he is not allowed to go to the Olympics in Korea. He and the others will not be able to defend their honor and dignity.

What a shame for the IOC!
This is the end for the Olympic movement. Today's IOC is no longer guided by the Olympic Charter and the Olympic principles laid down by the Pier de Coubertin !!!
These principles proclaim equality for athletes of all countries. During the Olympics in antiquity, even wars were stopped!
The leader of North Korea went to contact with South Korea, because he knows the principles of the Olympic Charter, but the IOC does not know them !!!
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Winnipeg » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:05 pm

If nothing was done to address the cheating that occurred, the IOC would be deemed incompetent and the Olys a farce.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:11 pm

JimSlate71 wrote:Not based only on Rodchenkov's words - also Vitaly Stepanov's, and a host of other people who would only comment anonymously, because they were afraid of repercussions. (i.e. didn't want to end up like Nemtsov)

The evidence really is overwhelming - male DNA found in female hockey player's urine, scratches under the caps only of suspected dopers, E-mail and electronic evidence of collusion with Russian agencies…..so much more to list, all in the report.


As for wrong DNA in samples.. :D :D :D
If the FSB were involved in this, would they have allowed such a mistake? It seems that the samples were just confused. Ordinary human negligence. In Russia this is common.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:18 pm

Winnipeg wrote:If nothing was done to address the cheating that occurred, the IOC would be deemed incompetent and the Olys a farce.

A lot was done.
Russia made huge work to build a new anti-doping system in the country.
Based on McLaren report a big number of sportsmen were found guilty and bear the disqualification.


The IOC many times stressed that the rights of clean sportsmen should be protected.
And what we get now?
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:14 pm

JimSlate71 wrote:
McLaren Report: https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/ ... t_ii_2.pdf

Not based only on Rodchenkov's words - also Vitaly Stepanov's, and a host of other people who would only comment anonymously, because they were afraid of repercussions.

...


Do you want me to believe in McLaren's report? And on whose testimony is it based? On the words of scammers and liars.
In Russia there is an expression "Once lied, who will believe you?"

Vitaly Stepanov, another McClaren informant, worked in the anti-doping laboratory, was convicted and fired for distributing illegal drugs. His wife, the runner Julia Stepanova, was disqualified and kicked out from the national team for doping. They fled from Russia. Don't you think that their testimony is the revenge? For me it seems obvious.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Fiveohnine » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:59 am

I can’t believe someone posted that scratches mean anything! Ioc rules scratches didn’t mean anything when they banned treyikaov for having no scratches! He was on a list written by rodchenkov so even though his bottles had no scratches and no salt and they didn’t find any failed tests or text messages with his bottle number he was banned only because he was on a list written by rodchenkov
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Virginia » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:58 pm

I am bothered by the fact that the IOC won't disclose the names and reasons for striking athletes from Russia.

If skaters like Stolbova and Bukin are guilty of doping, then the ISU needs to ban them as well. It's not enough just to prevent them from going to Pyeongchang; we have Worlds a month later. If they're guilty, they're guilty, and need to be suspended from the sport altogether, not just from the Olympics.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Virginia » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:01 pm

Fiveohnine wrote:
... they banned treyikaov ...


Who's "treyikaov"? I googled the name but came up empty. I certainly can't think of a figure skater by that name.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:33 pm

Virginia wrote:
Who's "treyikaov"? I googled the name but came up empty. I certainly can't think of a figure skater by that name.


Aleksandr Tretyakov (Russian skeletonist): two-time world champion among juniors, multiple champion of Russia, World Cup winner (2008/09), Bronze medalist of the Olympic Games (2010), champion of Europe, World champion (2013), Olympic champion (2014 )

He was deprived of his Gold medal in Sochi based on McLaren report. His fault was only that he was mentioned in Rodchenkov's list.
His case in now being processed in CAS.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby Ellen » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:05 pm

Virginia wrote:I am bothered by the fact that the IOC won't disclose the names and reasons for striking athletes from Russia.

If skaters like Stolbova and Bukin are guilty of doping, then the ISU needs to ban them as well. It's not enough just to prevent them from going to Pyeongchang; we have Worlds a month later. If they're guilty, they're guilty, and need to be suspended from the sport altogether, not just from the Olympics.


The IOC has not presented any explanations of not inviting Stolbova and Bukin. Based on what grounds the ISU should suspend them from Worlds???
Note, that two weeks ago they won Silver and Bronze at Euros and there were no information of them violating any anti-doping rule.

All Russian sportsmen excluded from Pyeongchang sent the requests to the IOC for the explanations. Also the heads of the Biathlon, and Ski federations sent personal requests demanding either present the evidence or let them compete in Korea. They wrote that with the absence of top skiers and biathlonists the competitions will loose interest. In response the IOC published the list of 17 criterias based on which they made their decisions. But the clarification which exactly critearia the athlete did not pass had not been given.

As I wrote earlier, Viktor Ahn (Six-time Olympic champion, six-time absolute world champion (2003-2007, 2014), 20-time world champion, eight-time winner of the World Cup in Short Track) in his open letter demanded the explanations for him to be able to defend his honor and dignity. No answer from the IOC yet.

Maybe some information from the IOC will be given later...

By the way, a lot of Russsian athletes who were deprived the medals from Sochi continue to compete at World cups, the European and other championships. The respective Sports federations did not remove them from the competitions for the lack of evidence of their fault.
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Re: Olympics Wide Open

Postby tennisfan » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:27 pm

Virginia wrote:I am bothered by the fact that the IOC won't disclose the names and reasons for striking athletes from Russia.

If skaters like Stolbova and Bukin are guilty of doping, then the ISU needs to ban them as well. It's not enough just to prevent them from going to Pyeongchang; we have Worlds a month later. If they're guilty, they're guilty, and need to be suspended from the sport altogether, not just from the Olympics.

There are privacy issues involved, and IOC isn't able to release publicly the reasons why athletes were not invited. I hope that the IOC will inform the individual athletes, but even if they do the likelihood is that the public may never know the reason(s).
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