2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby Virginia » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:15 pm

I find myself wondering how much backloading has helped Zagitova.

In other words: without the 10 percent bonus, would she have won in Beijing and Grenoble?

That's one for the math-heads to calculate ...
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby Dragonlady » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:43 pm

10% on all her jumping passes plus an extra point in GOE for ever hand over her head as she jumps.

What I find difficult to fathom in the marking for these young Russians is their PCS. It’s off the charts. Obviously I haven’t seen Zagitova live but I have seen Medvedeva and I would never her give her 9’s for skating skills, interpretation, choreography or performance. Low 8’s for skating skills at best, and 7’s for the others. She’s slow and has no ice coverage at all. Her program was skated in the middle of the ice and she seldom went to either end of the rink. Her jumps are clean and tidy but she has no height or distance. They go up and down in the same place. I like both of these girls but their marks just don’t correlate to the rules.

Last but not least neither Zagitova nor Medvedeva have any depth of edge. Both are skating on the ice not in it. Compared to Yuna Kim, Michelle Kwan, Carolina Kostner or even Tuktamasheva, these are junior skaters. Except for their outstanding ability to rotate and cleanly land jumps they are not the equal to the stronger, faster more polished adults on the ice and giving them 9’s for skating skills, choreography, interpretation and performance, and +2’s and 3’s for Medvedeva’s tiny jumps is ridiculous.

We have officially returned to 6.0 where the onlybability that matters is being able to jump in the back half of your program with your hand over your head
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby Jonas » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:30 pm

Great to have you back here posting, Dragonlady!! Tell my other buddy to throw me a bone and post a message on here once in a while! :)
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby Jonas » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:46 pm

PAIRS FS
Yeah, I personally woulda had James & Cipres further ahead in the FS and perhaps winning the event here and qualifying for the Grand Prix Final, but my cynical self already knew that Tarasova & Morozov were still gonna win overall. Kudos to them from experimenting "artistically," but Christina Aguilera's "Candyman" is a playfully risqué song and I got no sense of that in their performance.

Iliushechkina & Moscovitch were a hot mess at Skate Canada, but they did manage to clean it up a bit here and it allowed to better appreciate their FS. It's actually very well conceptualized and choreographed, so I'm hoping they can kill it! Too many mistakes by them to deny Della Monica & Guarise of their first Grand Prix medal.

MEN FS
Yeah, hot mess! After Javi splatted around, the win was for Shoma Uno's taking. Quadless Misha Ge was the highlight -- well performed and really maximized his point scoring potential. Well deserved medal.

I was expecting Vincent Zhou to really shine here with his quad clinic, but he struggled with them and once again finishes solidly behind Max Aaron, who wasn't on his game this week himself.

LADIES FS
Not surprised by the results. Kaetlyn Osmond's FS here was better than her winning FS at Skate Canada, but she had no room for error here if she wanted to hang on to the second win in this series.

Your thoughts...
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby Andy » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:59 pm

Virginia wrote:I find myself wondering how much backloading has helped Zagitova.

In other words: without the 10 percent bonus, would she have won in Beijing and Grenoble?

That's one for the math-heads to calculate ...


It depends on how many (and which) jumps would not have had the 10% bonus. The case of Grenoble is simple. Even without any 10% bonus, a very rough calculation shows that the start value of Zagitova would be 46.10 instead of 50.71 (this refers to the base value of the sum of her jumps). If we suppose that all the rest be the same (GOE, PCS), her total score in Grenoble would be 213.80-(50.71-46.10)=209.19. Right in front of Osmond.

In Beijing the situation is different: wihout any 10% bonus, she would have scored (applying the same rational) 213.88-(50.71-46.10)=209.27, behind Higuchi.

That said, one should take into consideration also the extra presents given by the judges in the choreo and transition department. And, of course, one should apply the same insight to the SP as well. In the FS, the composition mark was in the mid-high 8 for a heavily backloaded program. In my opinion the mark should have been roughly 1.5 points lower, in the low 7. this would have meant and extra 2.4 (roughly) off. Same story for the transitions, were imo the mark is at least 1 point higher than what it should be, so again another 1.6 off the final mark.

And to be clear: i like Zagitova. I admire her technical proficiency and I enjoy her freshness on the ice, I would just like the judges to mark fairly.
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby Ellen » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:18 pm

Andy wrote:
And to be clear: i like Zagitova. I admire her technical proficiency and I enjoy her freshness on the ice, I would just like the judges to mark fairly.


Agree.
Alina's Free program is so much joy to watch!
It is full of interesting little tricks, not a single empty moment, many interesting links, transitions.
She's very like a little ballerina. I'm in awe.
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby Dragonlady » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:31 pm

Ellen wrote:
Andy wrote:
And to be clear: i like Zagitova. I admire her technical proficiency and I enjoy her freshness on the ice, I would just like the judges to mark fairly.


Agree.
Alina's Free program is so much joy to watch!
It is full of interesting little tricks, not a single empty moment, many interesting links, transitions.
She's very like a little ballerina. I'm in awe.


I like her very much too and I also like Sotskova (sp?). She is so much like Medvedeva but with speed, flow, ice coverage and depth of edge. Her choreography isn’t quite as detailed but of the three she is, overall, the best skater of the three in my opinion.
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby Virginia » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:11 pm

Dragonlady, Sotskova is my favorite among the current crop of Russian ladies as well.

I feel an unreasonable resentment against Zagitova because of the backloading, which clearly is something for which she can't be held responsible. In the Russian system, skaters seem to be micromanaged by their coaches and the federation, just like the old Soviet days. Especially young teenage girls who haven't learned to assert themselves.

I'd love to see her do a program without the gimmick of backloading so I could get a more objective perspective on her skating.
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby chuckiem » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:58 am

I like Sotskova too, but I am also very impressed by Tsurskaya. Both skaters remind me in some way of Carolina Kostner when she was very, very young.
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby tennisfan » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:17 pm

Polina Tsurskaya is definitely my favourite of the Russians at the moment. Nice jumps with good speed, height, distance, and flow. Not the performance quality I'm looking for in a ladies competitor but it's her first year senior so I hope she grows. I appreciate Medvedeva's skating but I don't get anything from her performance and it doesn't stay with me once it's over. Zagitova's 3Lz+3Lo combination is very impressive but I get so annoyed by her inability to hold or stretch or finish any of her movements. Sotskova is a bit boring and lacking personality, but she has nice jumps and decent skating skills, thought I'd like it if she just didn't bother with the ugly hand over her head.
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Re: 2017 GP #5 TDF Nov 17-19 Grenoble FRA

Postby Maleeva » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:39 am

Tennisfan I feel the exact same way as you about the current Russian ladies. I can always judge how much I like a skater by how much I go back and watch their performances on Youtube. As much as I admire Medvedeva’s skating and competitiveness, I have never once wanted to go back and watch her programs because of their emotional impact on me.

Sotskova has nice jumps and speed, but she is a bit too delicate for my taste. She always has that look of a dear in headlights to me. I like skaters with more diva in their presentation.

I do think Leonova has great musicality and admire her perfromance abilities. Polina T is promising but I need more exposure to her programs before I have a good feel for her potential.
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