ISU SCORING CHANGES

ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby Maleeva » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:27 pm

First off I missed the memo that the men's free program gets shortened by 30 seconds next season and will have one less jumping pass. I'm sure PCS skaters like Jason Brown and Patrick Chan embrace this news.

The scoring change ideas are fascinating.

Thoughts?

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/ ... on-the-way
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby sms29s66 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:04 am

Interesting. If shortening the free skate would hurt artistic skaters' opportunity to develop their program, then perhaps limiting the number of quads but leaving the length of the program as is would be preferable to eliminating a jumping pass. I definitely don't like the idea of having separate competitions for athletic and artistic programs. I can see that leading to skaters who compete only in one or the other. I have been critical of the emphasis on quads in the past, but I don't think lowering the point value for quads is a good idea. (I hope my affection for both Jason Brown and Nathan Chen isn't coloring my thoughts!)
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby Andy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:33 am

I agree with Ade's view that cutting 30 sec of program will not help the artistic development. Interestingly, I have recently watched the final flight of the Men's competition of the Olys in 1998: I think none of the top skaters had 8 jumping passes, rather 6 or 7. Granted, there were not so many quads attempted, so there were less jumps to make use of. On the other hand, I think that for a sport a percentage of roughly 55/45 between TES and PCS is more than acceptable. In the end we deal with a sport and not with a show.
Which brings me to the usual point of how the code is being used: we see that often the best jumper, with a high TES, gets also high PCS. The five PCS show little variation among them. So if one of the goals of the ISU is to make sure that the best skater wins, and not the best jumper, there is one easy fix: start using the code the correct way.
I have my doubts on the proposed GOE too: we see judges struggling with applying a seven-grade scale... I can only imagine what would happen with a 11-grade scale. Again: have the judges properly trained and evaluated.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby Thaliana » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:10 pm

Interesting ideas, though I am not fond of all of them.

I don't mind the reduction in quad value, as I understand it would be cut by approx 10%. We've seen this kind of change in values for triples as well not too long ago, so fine. But I hope, that the deduction for failing a quad will still be high enough to prevent that a fall on a quad would be worth more than a reasonable triple. IIIRC that was one of the thoughts to increase the quad values after 2010.

I don't buy that cutting men FS to 4min will impact artistry. If you can't tell a story in 4min, another 30sec won't make a difference. Ladies FS are already 4min (+/-10sec I think) and that doesn't make the ladies less artistic than the men. But again, Keep them, cut them, I don't see a big problem either way.

However, I absolutely abhore the idea to make a technical and an artistic program and then crown individual as well as all-around winners. "The intention is to have three different medals" ??? Why!! The beauty of figure skating lies in its combination of sports and arts. I wouldn't watch a purely technical competition, and also not a purely artistic one - that would be singles dance then? I want to watch sports and not a show.

Also, if the intent is to bring back the popularity of figure skating as it used to be, I seriously doubt if distinguishing tech and artistic will help. At least technical content is something that you can somewhat judge even as a layman. URs and edges may not be easily understandable, but a competent commentator should be able to point those out in the replays or even life - at least the rather obvious ones.

But giving out an "artistic medal" is IMO actually dangerous for the sport's popularity. Judging skating skills, transitions... is quite impossible for recreational spectators and any perceived ranking is liable to be done based on the show value or music preference or similar things based in personal taste. So there might be vast discrepancies between official results and how the specators feel the results should be. THIS would just exacerbate the problem FS is facing.

I agree with Andy: A lot of problems would be solved if COP would be used as discretly as it is supposed to be. Also very true: medals are about sports, not show.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby patinage65 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:28 pm

Andy wrote:I have my doubts on the proposed GOE too: we see judges struggling with applying a seven-grade scale... I can only imagine what would happen with a 11-grade scale.

It's like giving the judges even more rope to hang themselves with.

Whatever came of separate judging panels for TES and PCS?
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby chuckiem » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:58 pm

Who exactly is pushing this idea? Has it been voted on and approved by the ISU Congress?

IMO, it is way too radical to implement next season.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby Maleeva » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:08 am

Chuckie all that info is in the article I posted above.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby chuckiem » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:11 am

If it's all going into a proposal being put before the Congress, what will finally emerge will be a vastly watered-down version of what was proposed. That's what happens with every bright idea that goes before the Congress.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby GoFigure » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:39 am

What next? Re-instating school figures? Someone has had a really big and loud brain fart.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby sms29s66 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:39 pm

I'd be happy to see school figures brought back--at least in the lower ranks. Then, perhaps, we'd see better skaters!
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby tennisfan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:58 am

Cutting the number of jumping passes in the men's free skate from 8 to 7 will reduce the technical score by 3 to 5 points. It seems like a strange and meaningless change to the programs that isn't going to balance the technical and artistic scores. It's not going to cut the length of competition by much - 24 skaters by 30 seconds each is only 12 minutes - not going to make any difference to television networks. The scoring system already has a built in way to balance the technical and artistic sides of the sport - increase the multiplier of the PCS so they create a maximum score that matches the maximum potential technical score. As other have mentioned, the real issue is not the judging system or the value of the elements, it is the judges who don't apply the judging system according to the requirements that are laid out.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby Andy » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:11 pm

patinage65 wrote:Whatever came of separate judging panels for TES and PCS?


Apparently nothing. Like many reasonable proposals geared to have better judging.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby Andy » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:27 pm

Another example that stroke my attention from the competitoion in Bergamo. Anna Zagitova.

She has all her 7 jump passes in the second half. THough this says enough about her technical abilities, stamina and possibly performance... but how about the Composition mark? Spreading elements evenly over the program... with seven jump passes in the second half, she gets a 8.55.

How about Transitions? If in the first half you perform only 3 elements -2 step sequences and one spin- what do you transition from? and into what? it may be some very good and difficult choreo, but transitions are about how different elements are interwoven. Still transitions were marked with an 8.30.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby Jonas » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:48 pm

I'm not opposed to the ideas of reducing the duration of the men's FS by 30 seconds and reducing the maximum jump passes from 8 to 7. Oddly, I'm not opposed to the idea of reducing the base values for the quads because, at this point, I don't think we will ever witness another quadless men's program winning a World or Olympic medal.

I agree w/the consensus regarding the "artistic program." Um, NO!

I think the reduction of the jumping passes will help a little w/that. Also, perhaps not rewarding the obvious backloading of programs or, at the very least, it should affect the CH component. I wouldn't oppose limiting the "Tano" and "Rippon" varieties of every jump just like the number of 3-jump combos are limited to just one.

And as mentioned before, but never seemingly addressed by the ISU is the "protocol" judging of the individual components as a "block." Perhaps maybe there should be a different judge for each of the components??

Your thoughts...
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby chuckiem » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:48 pm

It is NOT interesting to watch a skater perform all the spins and footwork up front, and then do all the jumps one after another. IMO, there should be a restriction on the number of jumps that can receive 10% bonus. If the limit was 5 jumps, there would be no benefit to extreme backloading, forcing a more balanced program.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby bumphystars » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:05 pm

Jonas wrote: I wouldn't oppose limiting the "Tano" and "Rippon" varieties of every jump just like the number of 3-jump combos are limited to just one.


THIS. A million times this. So often the skaters who do this are doing it at the expense of strong rotations and good ice coverage. What should be more encouraged?

Also, it lost its wow factor long ago...
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby sms29s66 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:33 am

I'm just as sick of these arm over the head jumps as I was with grabbing the skate at every opportunity. (It looks like the skater is trying to get gum off the blade!) And chuckie, I love your suggestion of limiting the number of jumps that can get the bonus.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby Andy » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:09 am

sms29s66 wrote:I'm just as sick of these arm over the head jumps as I was with grabbing the skate at every opportunity. (It looks like the skater is trying to get gum off the blade!) And chuckie, I love your suggestion of limiting the number of jumps that can get the bonus.


They could instate a rule like they did with the Bielmann position. If I am not mistaken, only one Bielmann spin is allowed, and back in the days when spirals were an element, only one Bielmann position was allowed in the spirals. Or something along those lines.

I'd say: one jump with either arm aloft, and one jump with both arms aloft at the max. Back in the days, we have seen also other positions: hands on hips or arms spread out, landing with arms folded and so on. No need to become boring on this department.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby GoFigure » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:49 am

What bugs me the most in current judging is that judges tend to give same mark for every PC at least if you're not a "household name". For me at least it gives a signal that they were watching cat videos on their monitors instead of the actual program.
When it comes to Tanos and Rippons, I completely agree: repeating them is just plain boring and in Medvedeva's case, plain ugly. Come to think of it, I haven't seen an Ito axel, that is hands on hips, ever since. Too bad she wasn't rewarded for it, because judges back then were into Wittian antics.
Backloading jumps should reduce composition/choreography points. I wouldn't give more than 6.
After all judges should learn to differentiate the PC's and it should be demanded by the ISU officials in order to maintain judges position.
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Re: ISU SCORING CHANGES

Postby Ellen » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:55 am

Regarding jumps and balanced programs. It depends on music and the composition. If the melody is slow at the beginning and then pace increases, then the jumps look quite normal in the fast part. You can not simple arrange jumps at same intervals, it may not be combined with the music or the composition. Therefore, yes, sometimes jumps in the second part fit well into the program.

I would have noted another point. Sometimes a skater chooses a program that does not suit him/her. For example, look at Osmond's FS this season. In no way should she have chosen the "Swan Lake". What kind of swan is she ?! :roll: There is no plasticity, no correct movements. She can skate the same program under a completely different music, and it will look better. So judges should somehow reflect in the PCS such inconsistency of the image on the ice to the chosen musical accompaniment.
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